Goodison denied another climax as VAR controversy takes centre-stage

We lost so much momentum when Lindstrøm went off. Retreated too deep and then were undone by a free kick. Loathe to dig out the players but Pickford was poor for the goal.
We can cry about VAR at the end but we should have been out of sight by then. United were terrible.

Ian that is how I seen the game as well.

We won the first half, United the second, and the ref lost both.

Lindstrom had a flue bug, which is why he went off early
the ref was a disgrace, did everything in his power to give Utd the upper hand.
I’m well past tired of our club and managers just letting it go.
We get fk all being meek may as well become hated by PGMOL by highlighting every bstrd inconsistency.

And yet because of the ref we lost the second half,when we shouldn’t have.

The penalty decision may have stood but for Young's theatrical fall but how could the initial call be a clear and obvious error?
VAR is OK for offside and straight reds but not for subjective calls.
Doucoure had a brain fart when he raised his arm to deflect the free kick which is a shame as he otherwise had a good game.
I think the second half changed when we gave up the high press. A safety first move that backfired.

In the end I was relieved to get a point against a United team who were abject for the first seventy minutes. As against Spurs a few weeks ago our team ran out of energy in the latter stages. Also United played with greater width in the second half with the wide midfielders hugging the touch-lines. That in turn stretched our midfielders. They were unable to keep on top of Fernandes who controlled most of the play in the closing stages.

I guess Lindstrøm was carrying an injury before he went off. Otherwise there was no reason to make a change at that point, nine minutes into the second half.

Whilst there’s a consensus that Harrison has been good of late, I just don’t see it. Sure he may offer defensive cover but attacking wise he does nothing. He should have scored prior to Doucs nodding it in and he is really inept at making or taking chances.

If Lindstrom was unwell then I’ll be more circumspect with him BUT it’s in the wide positions that we lost it. We lost the initiative as we just didn’t really threaten United. 3-0 would have been game over but the wide forwards are so abject, so lacklustre and so unthreatening.

I actually think this was one our worst performances under Moyes 2.0 and I’m disappointed he didn’t make the subs earlier to try to seize control. Even if he’d played 4 centre midfielders in the midfield eg Tim RW and Alcaraz LW to solidify us, it would have been better than what ensued.

And once the pen was given it should have remained a pen. VAR is frustratingly inconsistent. VAR did not show the referee all the angles: only an angle that benefited United and based on that I can see why he changed his mind. BUT other angles showed a clear shirt pull. I don’t know why the usage of VAR is so crap in this country - it really does make one wonder if it’s incompetence or corruption. Given the latter situation is unlikely in this case (really, the outcome of this match is inconsequential to either side: no one is going down nor going into Europe) then it must be rank stupidity, rank incompetence and rank absurdity.

The PGMOL is not fit for purpose

#2 on a phone?

I was working so have only seen the highlights. I agree that Pickford was very much at fault for their first. Very poor. As for the penalty. The comments of other posters are accurate. A soft penalty, yes, but the pull by de Ligt was clear. It was obvious, but not shown, it seems as part of the review. I hate VAR. Would love it gone. Robbed.

It puzzles me that after six years, there are still some fans who think VAR is a good thing on decisions which are a matter of subjective opinion.

The tyranny of the referral to the pitch side monitor has made the job of referees even more difficult. That is especially the case when, as happened today, the official has five players within earshot while he is studying the footage. The whole thing is a farce.

Why nineteen clubs voted to retain it last summer is another mystery. Plainly they did not consult their fans.

Still rather angry at that VAR intervention, it was as if the presence of Sir Alex made the difference.

Having said that, bringing Young on was a mistake IMO, we instantly conceded possession of a quarter of the pitch and MU didn’t need to worry about defending it - the paucity of options on the bench was clear but it needed someone with attacking intent and pace to replace Lindström.

Then again, Young should have had a penalty for us!!

I agree the introduction of Young didn’t help us, though 2nd half we dropped our collective press and allowed Bruno Fernandes to run the game.
It worked so well 1st half, did we decide to sit back or run out of steam?
The really galling thing about the VAR farce was that the VAR team did not show the referee the shirt pulll(s) angle, if they had it couldn’t have been overturned. Why wouldn’t you show all angles?

We played some very good football today.

We were very good for sixty minutes. We should have been out of sight, 4 or 5. Easily.

Instead, we gifted them control as we tired, and PGMOL gifted them a point they didn't deserve. Something that's happened far too often.

In Moyes' first reign, Clattenburg was banned for years after fucking with us. I hope to see us show our teeth similarly as a club in future, rather than allowing those corrupt wankers to toy with us, costing us league places and money.

The only logical conclusion I can think of why the clubs voted unanimously to keep VAR, is because the television companies must have got involved and privately told the other fourteen clubs, that they would be making a huge financial mistake if they voted to get rid of it🤷‍♂️

Why not bring Alcaraz on after 65 mins and go for the third?. But at least we’re already safe. Which we all would have taken, if we’d been offered it on January 1st.

Hate to be the dissenting voice, or do I... ?

That was never, ever a pen. Young made an absolute meal of it. He's a con-artist, I don't like him wearing our jersey, and he's done this his entire career.

He went down so softly, obviously trying to make a meal out of a shirt pull to create a pen out of nothing. It's his MO, and it's embarrassing.

Everton is better than this. We play hard, honest football. Ashley Young is not that type of player and never has been.

Never a pen, ring the Game of Thrones "Shame Bell" for Young.

Stay on your feet man. Go down at real contact, but conning the refs is unbecoming of Everton Football Club.

Shame. Leave at the end of the season. You're unbecoming of all things Blue.

Jamie Crowley #19, I agree with every word of your post. In fact we seen a bit of the old cautious Moyes preferring Young to Alcaraz.

Well I firmly believe this is match fixing. Our first goal, VAR check was made to every Everton player to try to catch them offside. This is Man Utd; well loved by plastic fans all over the world. And of course, "top 6" epl bias; equally corrupted pundits, referees and media. Their second goal never check two offside players. Penalty never check all angles. Another idiot Goldbridge calling Moyes low IQ manager and Everton players low IQ players. All pundits calling Young a cheater for diving. The list goes on and on. Am an Everton fan from the 80s. We will always get biased results and reports by media, so no surprises there. We just do our best and carry on. COYB

Jamie

I see your point but the referee called it so it was a penalty at that stage. VAR had no right to call it in because it wasn't a clear and obvious error. So the penalty should have stood. There were 3 attempts to foul Young, 2 pulls on his shirt and watch Slabhead’s left leg go out to trip him.

Absolute crap refereeing and VAR robbed us of three deserved points
Trooping out the ground and into the pub almost everyone was deflated
In the pub and watching the replays on the tv made the decision even worse!
There can be no excuse given only an apology by those in charge
Mind you we should have battered them regardless!

Jamie, in this day and age, a tug on a shirt slight or not, is a foul. You see it every game and you see the players doing it usually booked as well.
Young made sure it would be noticed by going down, indeed Madley had a clear line of sight of the foul and gave it. VAR decided to ignore the pulls and literally took a different view, one where it was difficult to see an infringement. Now, given that VAR was used to review every possible angle in an attempt to find fault with Beto'sgoal, the deliberate omission of the very clear view of the foul was disgraceful.
In another age, such theatrics would have been poor, now you see it every game, every tackle. The fact remains, there were two pulls by separate players on Young. The referee got it right the first time and bottled it thanks to the slight of hand at VAR. Penalty, every day of the week.

These days about the only goals worth celebrating are shots from distance, direct free kicks and penalties.
It seems that all other goals e.g. from corners or other crosses or any that involve a period of build up play will be heavily scrutinised as the VAR team try to find a reason to get involved (even when not needed) and cancel it. Yesterday’s examples with the Beto goal and the penalty were just the latest ridiculous examples.
I see ex ref Mark Halsey has said that VAR had no need to call for the penalty decision to be reviewed. Having done so the ref was shown the wrong footage. Was this done to protect one one the EPLs favoured clubs? I guess we all have our own opinion on that.

Pundits, media, officials.
All corrupt.

Illegal activity right before us.
Nothing gets done.

Game has gone.

Even TV commentators ignore the rules. On MOTD the commentator said 'Young's shirt was being pulled but VAR decided perhaps correctly it wasn't enough to bring him down'. Which bit of the game's rules was he referring to there? Where in the rules does it define a foul as a foul only where contact is sufficient to bring a player to ground?

Jamie #19 I agree Young made the most of it but as Michael #22 says the referee calling it wasn't a clear and obvious error (and he only reviewed it from one angle). There is definite contact & shirt pulling on Young.

It was a penalty, definitely, but Youngs theatrics gave them an excuse not to give it. The ref should be bolder and stick to his original decision. VAR should not have got involved but I actually don’t think they would have if Young hadn’t exaggerated his fall so blatantly. I do agree with Jamie in that Young cost us there and I think that Moyes will be telling him so.

Yes Young exaggerated it to make his point, is there a modern footballer that doesn’t..
The shirt pulls are not in dispute, nobody trying to deny that.
They don’t constitute a penalty it appears.
Slow as he is, I think Young has the forward momentum and is best placed to get to that rebound.
Howard Webb, will tell us midweek, after thinking long and hard and consulting lawyers, that the shirt pulls were not sustained enough to award a penalty.
Not against Man Utd anyway.

Everton (and any of the 14 others): If Young doesn't make a meal of it/make it obvious, the ref doesn't see the two fouls on him and the VAR team don't get involved to tell him otherwise. No pen.

The Sly 6: If Young is wearing one of these shirts and he doesn't make a meal of it, the ref (maybe) doesn't see the fouls, but the VAR team quickly get in his ear to say 'Hey. Come and look at these two tugs on Young's shirt that you missed'. It's a pen.

I see this sort of thing quite often in La Liga, and most weeks in England. Nobody with any power or influence gives a toss about hard honest football, I'm afraid.

Which is worse? To have an incorrect VAR intervention or to have the penalty confirmed and then miss ?
Just an idle thought for Sunday afternoon debate. From my perspective, probably the former as we can all moan and share our feeling of being cheated and aggrieved. If we had got it and missed then the disappointment would have been huge. That said, I'm guessing that Beto would have taken it and upon current form, would have left the net bulging. We will never know.

Ian Wilkins @ 30 -

Yes, most (not every) player goes down nowadays. But as my Irish Mom always told me, "If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?" Just because most are doing it doesn't make it right.

Queen of Evertonia @24 -

Christine, of course you are right. Here it comes... BUT!

I adore this sport. It is a symphony of athleticism that is simply wonderful. But the one thing that drives me mad about this sport, and it really does drive me mad, is these grown men not using their strength and athleticism to drive through contact. They act like little girls (sorry, not PC...) far too often. Diving, historonics, rolling around on the ground, et al. Perhaps, and I'm sure this is pretty accurate, it's my hockey background and culture. You just don't do that. If you get tackled and you're not hurt, get the f&^k up and keep going. Don't con refs. Play the game with respect.

Ashley Young has a history of shite tactics, and he caused his team to allow the refs, due to these tactics in particular and his history, of reversing the call. Why? Because he went down like a weakling. It just drives me mad, and these types of actions exhibited by Young are exactly why this sport of soccer doesn't take hold here in America. No one wants to see a man, most of them built like a Greek god, fake an injury or go down due to contact weakly.

I spoke of this the other day: the hockey game between Canada and the USA last Saturday had three fights in nine seconds. The third fight the USA player was outsized by his opponent massively. The Canadian player had 25 lbs or so on the American, and the American was at least 7-8 inches shorter. The American lost the fight, but the fools who simply said, "He got his ass kicked" missed the point. The American KNEW he'd lose and DIDN'T back down. THAT fires up his teammates. THAT is real effort and sacrifice for the team, and in hockey culture, everyone knows it and I guarantee his teammates were like, "Fuck yes, let's go!"

I want to see our Everton players play tough, fair, "manly" football.

Ashley Young is far too often the antithesis of that. And it frankly disgusts me.

I understand your perspective Jamie ( and your Mums).
I started going to football in the 1970’s, the game has changed undoubtedly for the worse in terms of cynical gamesmanship. I too dislike the antics of the modern footballer.

Until football decides to do something about it ( stopping holding in the box; retrospectively giving reds for diving ( that worked well with Niasse) then it’s here to stay).

I would make a distinction between an exaggerated fall following a clear, unquestioned double shirt pull. Might not care for the exaggeration, but it’s a foul in modern rules, and say the Jota dive ( no contact) against Wolves last week ( correctly overruled) plus the frequent simulated contact between the forward and the defender ( the usual Diaz, Salah manoeuvres).

Put simply I think Youngs was a penalty even though he made a meal of it.

A Blight on the game ! Perfect description Lyndon.

A shirt pull near the halfway line 99 tines out of 100 is usually a foul and a booking.

There is no, zero, absolutely 0% chance that any official looking at that incident could say his shirt wasn't pulled.
Therefore it's a foul.
There's no interpretation, no discretion, no obvious error.

VAR is to tell an on field official, he has, or might have made the wrong decision if its clear and obvious.

This was clearly and obviously a foul.
Yes young made the most of it, but so would 99% of PL players in the last minute of injury time, that makes no difference.

We all know it so we are just shouting into the void.
It's disgusting!!

First to Jamie’s rants about players acting like complete fools: Agreed completely. And the great irony of the Niasse debacle is that the intent to retroactively suspend players made a lot of sense, they just picked the completely wrong example to use. To reinstate that effort would be a good start, but you’d still end up with endless debates about the subjectivity of the decision. Maguire probably could have been booked twice if such a rule were strict enough, made worse by his crying for the foul afterwards. Some of the simulation is downright awful, while other times it’s just annoying and unnecessary, like with Ashley Young — but then it begs the question of whether you get the call if you don’t exaggerate a bit, especially when the standard is always higher in the penalty area.

But to the actual play in question and my referee perspective. To hold an opponent is a foul. It impedes his ability to play the ball. It may not have warranted the end result of his flop, but it was still a foul. The strange thing about this call, and I recognized this at the time, is Madley didn’t see the shirt tugs, he saw the arm from Maguire and called that, and there’s good debate about that not being a foul. So in a sense, I’m okay with the VAR saying, What you called is worth a second look, but then we need to turn to the shirt tugs — was THAT a clear and obvious error NOT to call that as a penalty? My argument is, Yes, and so you do keep the penalty call, but it’s actually a result of VAR intervention, almost as if there’s 2 interventions on the same play. I would bet Howard Webb gives this explanation, but says that the missed shirt tugs were not clear and obvious.

Either way, we were robbed — including the terrible foul call on Doucoure leading to the Fernandes goal — but I would argue that you win some and lose some, and I’ll never buy the corruption argument. Last week against the RS, we scored the first goal on a phantom foul, followed by the more important miss, which was Branthwaite moving the ball forward about 6-10 yards. And the second goal, we did get lucky they didn’t review a push on Beto.

So we take the point and move on. The first half showed what we were capable of, even if Manure were beyond terrible. The second half showed our lack of depth, but we held on and gave ourselves a chance to win at the end. I will not utter the words safety just yet, but I was surprisingly not as depressed yesterday after blowing the lead, knowing just how far we’ve come this past month. Up the Toffees!

Jonathan 36. Well thought out your post.
I don't actually go as far as corruption, but bias is definitely there.
We've had many decisions like that go against us, decisions where we've thought we should have a pen and VAR won't even look at it, or check it in 2 seconds.

The ref should have had the balls to admit he gave for for the arm, but the shirt pulling was the real foul.

They want to appear clean, well be honest, we all know humans make mistakes, if he'd not blew and said I got it wrong after the game that's fair enough.
But to blow for it, then watch it back on monitor and say that's not a foul then that's where I say bias, maybe if it was for us to draw 2-2 he's not under as much pressure and gives it ?

We move on, we don't let them get in our way.
Moyes always had a way of using things like this to galvanise the team, bring out another 1 or 2 % of effort.

It didn't kill us.
WHAT DOEST KILL YOU, MAKES YOU STRONGER!!!

UTFT !!!

Phil@31, final paragraph is the best thing I’ve read about the game of football all weekend mate.

I am like Jamie, and don’t like to see players cheating but, the game is absolutely littered with this type of very off putting behaviour nowadays and as for VAR, it is eliminating every different, type of emotion out of the game, except anger

What's very disappointing to me from a VAR perspective is that the ref was never shown the angle through Pickfords net that we all got to see as spectators. We see the shirt pulls.
VAR only shows him the view from the Bullens Road and they basically tell him " Maguire doesn't touch him". What they fail to say is " we could show you the 2 shirt pulls from DeLigt but if we show you that you would probably stick with your original decision.
VAR are telling the ref " we've slowed it down for you and you can see Maguire doesn't foul him"
They were economical with the truth which is borderline corrupt IMHO

Nothing new with this debate.

Diving and play acting crossed the channel 50 odd years ago.

The British game in the 60s and 70s bears no resemblance to the over officiated game of today.

It didn't resemble ice hockey either, there were no masks and pads, but there was a lot of blood sweat and physicalty, when you watch old footage now it looks like a completely different game.

And it is, european teams developed the art, dive, act, win free kicks hold up play at a crucial moment, influence refs, change the course of a game, and eventually the British teams going into European competitions had to deal with that.

And as more players were transfered around Europe so the habit spread, and slowly the British game followed that evolution, into this century with sky TV and the marketed product that the beautiful game has become.

So no, nothing new, but var really sucks, big time, techno overkill.

Goal line technology might have a place, imagine that at Wembley 66 world cup final...haha

But var, does it improve anything, or are we just having a different argument, we've swapped one possible human error in real time for multiple possible errors delaying real game time, and the debates post match rumble on after the event but achieve nowt, you can't alter the outcome after the game is over, so why bother...

The thing for me is, the VAR decision has dominated the comments above on what was also a match report as much as it was a comment itself on VAR. It's a pity, because we again played vey well in a game.

If Young didn't go down then it wouldn't even be looked at. You shouldn't have to force a decision, but you do.

The following summation is just my opinion, but based on a lifetime of playing, coaching, and watching... Young was favourite for the loose ball, De Ligt instinctively tugged his shirt, Young was no longer favourite for the ball, so he quite theatrically went to ground.

What I've described above should result in a penalty.

Instead, in the VAR era, it resulted in a cross examination of the referee who, in the melee, believed it was Maguire who was the main transgressor. VAR then looks solely at Maguire and the resulting fall, even if the fall didn't actually result from Maguire's actions! They then deliberately filter the vision shown to the referee to ensure only Maguire can be looked at.

It's an absolute nonsense. A triumph for bureaucratic bollox over footballing common sense.

As for the "you don't fall that way" and "you can't give a penalty for every shirt pull" gang. I just assume they've never played. Being held while jostling in the area before a corner is a very different proposition to being pulled back while trying to attack a loose ball with the keeper on his backside.

Phil &31 sums up the event perfectly. If Young hadn’t gone to ground the ref would never have called a penalty and he wouldn’t have reached the ball. He would probably have given a free out for McGuires dive.

Jamie don’t be so sanctimonious, ironic comments from someone who praised the US hockey team for getting into a 3 fights in the first minute in the recent game v Canada. Or were you talking about hockey or UFC