It might seem easy to say when history is pretty much all you've got at the moment but Everton's achievements, honourably achieved, are an immense source of pride for me.

I couldn't abide having come by our success by any means other than fair and above board. Manchester City's success of the past 15 years, along with their reputation, has been indelibly stained by this scandal.

Yes, the fans have those great memories but, if I were one of them, those memories would be forever tarnished and feel very empty now they've been proven to have been based on years of cheating and cover-ups.

Simply put NO ! Tarnished success is not success, end of. The BBC reckon we lost £66m in income due to Cities "success".

Something has just come on the news that 94% of top football clubs are losing millions, and even if the players played for free, a lot of clubs would still be running at a loss.

I only had one ear on this news, but it does show us that if things don’t change then the game just isn’t going to be sustainable in the long term.

I don’t think about it often, but now I’m writing this post, I honestly think that the beautiful game, just like life itself, has never been so been so false.

Top players in England, probably earn more in a month, than the yearly budget, for at least a third of professional football club’s, in the football league for a start.

Controlled by television, controlled by the media, so many people getting their palms greased, usually to give an opinion that suits the biggest teams.

My own personal view is that Manchester City, have got to be dealt with properly, (what’s properly? Definite relegation, maybe to league one) otherwise the league is finished with regards integrity.

But the laws are false, they stop owners with money spending to preserve the status-quo, but with so many clubs allegedly losing obscene amounts of money, what exactly is the answer?

An owner with all the money in the world can’t spend it, whilst owners who are more interested in serving the clubs debt, than bringing real success to the club’s that they’re leveraging, have got no such worries to contend with.

The greed of the beast kills everything, is how I currently view a game that I’ve loved all my life.

An afterthought to what you wrote Lyndon@1, is that I’d love to see the fantastically loyal younger generation of Evertonians, dancing with joy after finally seeing a club, they have dedicated a lot of their lives to winning silverware and I think that’s why a lot of City fans, who lived through a lot of pain watching United dominating, and taking the piss out of them, don’t seem to care one iota, with the implications that they’re cheats?

I agree with what Kieran, has expressed,(in a really good article) that most young people would take the tarnished glory.

difficult one kieran v.difficult - like you 30 odd years of winning nout hurts. hypothetically maybe I could be ok with it but very difficult to imagine everton football club being able to cheat efficiently.
by the way I think financial doping in the epl is still going on - some very suspicious transfer fees transpired over the last window. both too high and too low fees.
if its the sly sky six thats ok !

This is my first time on the Evertonia site since giving up on ToffeeWeb, so please be kind if it’s it of a ramble.

Firstly, what an excellent thought provoking article by Kieran. I am 69 years old and started watching Everton in 1968, my first game beating Leicester 7:1. I must admit the skills of the late sixties side probably past me by, despite attending most of the home games. But it was in 1970’s especially at the away matches, when I became a proper Evertonian. With the players we had like Martin Dobson, Bob Latchford etc, we should have won the league at least twice in that decade, and if we had a competent manager, and brought Peter Shilton as a goalkeeper we might well have done, however not actually winning the league never blunted my enjoyment of watching Everton.

I was also fortunate in experiencing the mid 1980’s team, and regularly going to Wembley, whereas my grown up children only have the loss to Chelsea, and a penalty shootout against Utd to remember. To try and get back track, we as a family were recently discussing the City situation, and all three of my grown up children were in agreement that they would never want to buy their trophies the way City had. And I can honestly say the tears of joy from my daughter when we beat Palace to stay up were the equal to mine when beating Watford after such a long gap.

So to finish, I don’t think that the younger generation would accept cheating just to win a trophy, and definitely not our travelling away fans who are the heartbeat of the club.

Do football fans quickly forget the dishonour associated with their clubs?

- Liverpool: Hysel
- Juventus: Tax fraud
- Juventus, AC Milan, Fiorentina, Lazio (match fixing in mid-noughties)
- Marseille: bribery
- Everton: stadium likely to have been funded by problematic Uzbek Oligarch (read his bio)
- Forest: recent relative success funded by problematic Greek Billionaire (read his bio)
- West Ham: Tevez and Mascherano deals, porn empire owners
- Chelsea: unsurprisingly timed expose of the Abramovich era (with Cypriot branch of Deloitte implicated)

This list could go on forever.

The answer is "yes" everyone forgets very quickly. And if it happens to strike your club, the overwhelming response is outrage at the punishment - not the shame of dishonour.

That is why shady characters invest in football clubs - you instantly gain a devout and loyal following from millions of people worldwide who don't mind how awful you are as long as you go big in the transfer market.

Robert, I was amazed at how there wa such an expectation that we should have spent huge sums in the summer on players. Financial spending rules, pressing demands on resources from other parts of the club, outstanding debt repayments meant nothing. It was an attitude of spend, spend, spend, and hang the consequences.

The breach of PSR rules, the points deductions, were long forgotten. Points deductions in a season battling relegation to boot.

If I could go back to this afternoon, I think I would have added the paragraph below as the final point in the article. Perhaps an explanation as to how I could be so accepting.

I often think that being a football fan means living largely in a child like state. Instant gratification, emotional highs and lows, living from week to week and result to result. I honestly don't think that in reality we live as deep and meaningful creatures. We may preach about ideals, about wanting our club's owners to do things in a proper way. But dangle the prospects of trophies, and a simple happy existence in front of us, and we'll grab it with both hands. We are, as I said, a very fickle bunch. And when it suits our child like state, we are very quick to forgive and forget.

Kieran, sorry but a resounding no from me.

If you don’t win by fair means you don’t win at all.

Despite what the city fans are saying now their club is forever tainted and they deserve to suffer as a result.

I think part of the problem is a lot of us are thinking as supporters of a premier league team but football is obviously much bigger than that.

My occasional forays to see Marine are enjoyable in that I want them to win and can enjoy a more of a ‘blood and thunder’ game but my biggest investment is in Everton.

I would hate to win something and then to be found out as cheats. It would stick with us forever not just in relation to the wider football community but more especially to the RS.

That I wouldn’t be able to bear so let’s carry on in our attempt to improve in the proper way, in common with almost all of the rest of football.

Would I really be upset? Yes.
I appreciate we are not exactly on a level playing field with the massive discrepancy in income but to win the way City have is like Ben Johnson winning the 100metres in 1988, by cheating, the stain of which can never be removed.

Manchester City will carry this stain for generations, until the very youngest fan has drawn their last breath. No the game is not played on a level playing field, but look at Leicester City, once PL Champions now disappearing down the plug hole.. but they did show that corruption doesn't always win and I am sure the pride they have in doing what they did will live far longer than any City fan.
On one hand it's incredibly sad for the players, the team put together by Pep have been a class above all except it was a team built on lying, cheating and their achievements, whilst brilliant are forever tainted by corrupt owners. So for me I would never feel it was won by playing to the rules. The end does not justify the means.

Absolute, resounding no from me.

Cheating your way to success screws every single entity competing fairly.

Unequivocal no.

Christine finishes with: "The end does not justify the means." Amen.

This is a very, very easy question to answer... hypothetically.

But if you had been through a lifetime of what working-class City fans had been through, to be suddenly on top of the world and savor those joys and ecstasies and celebrations for 15 years, would those feelings and memories suddenly be soiled forever?

I'm afraid human nature doesn't work that way.

One conclusion I reject completely is Peter Hoban's: That the City fans deserve to suffer. No, they don't. These transgressions were not committed by the fans and they carry no stain of dishonor. They didn't riot, or attack opposing fans, or display racist or fascist banners, or chant sexual obscenities as other fans all over the world have done. Their bananas are inflated, not thrown at black players. All they did was cheer their club as we would have, and they did so in good spirit with particularly notable traveling support.

And as Robert says, I personally doubt that the disgrace their club carries will last forever, or anywhere close to that. If Juventus, Milan, Barcelona, Rangers and the RS don't still carry around their hideous misdeeds, neither will City.

Mike, I understand where you're coming from but I'm afraid as crass as it sounds, it's the ENGLISH Premier League, I mean we invented the darn thing and the sense of fair play runs infinitely deeper than other leagues or other countries. We are the pinnacle of the game, that others look to.
Stuff it up and it's world class infamy of mega proportions. It's why, God help me, that the likes of Everton or Forest get smacked with a wholly disproportionate penalty for a single transgression and why City will be in a bad place for a while to come. Yes they may recover but probably without the current owners in place, the fans will suffer their own purgatory totally undeserved but they should vent their spleen on the owners and not on the PL.

Which drops right into the bit no one has actually looked at in any real depth. The rules. Yes I know we all signed up for them, but frankly the actual set of rules are so badly thought through that they have in themselves ensure an anti competitive format.its not because of wealth but turnover. City skewed the rules with inflated sponsorship thereby increasing the opportunity for its owners to spend way above the mark. The effect was cumulative year on year. Not just a drawbridge but an unbridgable gap that wealth is not even allowed to bridge.

If you apply the rules to UK earned revenue instead of foreign revenue or sponsorship it might level things a bit, but for me it's gone too far to continue without a major revision to the Premier League rulebook and their management.

As always, I am never fully happy with an article. I could fine tune it for a week before submitting it, and still feel I've not fully explained or expanded on some points.

I've read everyone's responses, but Peter and Mike's stood out.

A paragraph somewhere towards the end of the article could have discussed in more depth the idea of when fans know about the misdeeds, about the rule breaking, whether they protested against them or stood silent. Whether or not they committed misdeeds of their own.

It may have reshaped the point of the article but would have added more scope, more context to a yes or no answer to the question in the title.

Firstly, I don't think fans should carry any of the guilt for the misdeeds of a previous generation of their club's fans. Times have changed and it isn't the seventies and Eighties anymore.

Likewise, I don't think they should necessarily carry the blame for the sins of the owners.

If the fans' memories were made in good faith, then I do think they deserve to enjoy them. In part, that is where my resounding yes answer is coming from.

However, a caveat to my yes answer, and something I should think about as an individual fan, is my reaction to the owners once the news breaks. I would have more issue with any fan base staying silent, and not protesting in some way about what the owners have done to their club. Would I complain as an individual?

But, as I have stated in my response to Robert, we are fickle creatures. How long I would stay mad with the owners before the positive memories won out? How long would a fan base protest, feel disgruntled or embarrassed, about the owners once the dust had settled and time had moved on?

Good article, Kieran.The more research I have done into Everton the more cynical I have become.The Premier League wasn’t designed for sustainability, but for capital extraction. Owners don’t need clubs to turn a profit; they need them to appreciate in value and not get relegated.

Kenwright extracted value by selling the club at a higher valuation stripping it's assets to fund his purchase, while Friedkin is consolidating assets and attempting to cash in, Moshiri failed when his wider financial structures collapsed due to sanctions and regulation The IFR report diagnoses the symptoms, not the disease.

We’re stuck with three overlapping models:

Selling the club at a higher valuation — capturing scarcity and global brand growth.

Extracting value while owning it — through loans, fees related-party arrangements.and minority stakes at appreciated value.

Using the club as a loss leader — for real estate, media or sportswashing, where the return is influence and reputation.

Some owners extract value without success, as at Everton under Kenwright Moshiri and Fruedkins or United under the Glazers. Others combine extraction with trophies and prestige, as at City under Abu Dhabi.

We have been living this reality without recognising it. We’re simply on the wrong model.The is a system with it's own morality, removed from what we might think.

Everton that.

Capital extraction - what a sentence Jerome.

Or in the case of the Manchester City owners, put in the capital and extract the power of the people in the highest positions in the land. I used to watch Mexican Narco’s, realise how close The Cali Cartel, came to actually 100% owning every single politician in the country, and think to myself that wouldn’t happen here. How naive was I.

Tony#16

I missed including that they are that busy extracting capital they neglect running the football side properly,just palming the fans off with sop and pullovers or in Fruedkins case ghosted us .Who the F.. do they think they are I have never looked at Nacos on Netflix, must do.

Jerome, as fans we turn a blind eye to the lack of morality within football. We growl and give on platforms like this one or TW. We growl and give out over a pint with our mates. But we still turn up on game say, still buy merchandise, still buy season tickets. I'm not saying fans are complicate, of that we opening condone it, but we don't walk away either. We don't keep our money in our pockets, ir apply our real life mieals when supporting our club.

Do you see,read or hear about City fan protests. Are they pickering the ground, getting up enmassse during a game and walking out? Are they srarting a new club, like FC Utd? No theyre not. They wave plastic bananas to lighten the mood.

It says a lot about their response and attitude to the charges..what morality?

Being honest, I would swap our last 10 years for City's last 10 years, regardless of what punishment they receive.

An analogy: if it came out that something untowards had happened with the 80's side would we all say " it's tainted, I regret the dancing and singing I did?"

John, brilliant question.

Mike (12) my paragraph wasn’t clear enough. It’s the club that needs to suffer but the fans will of course suffer when the punishment is handed down, through no fault of their own.

But Christine (13) is right, the rules need to be totally revamped.

Our individual thoughts will always be subjective and the media, whether it be social, print or TV, play a huge part in feeding the narrative these days.

I’m old enough to remember when Tony Kay was banned for life for his transgression when at Sheffield Wednesday but was playing for us and so we suffered.

It was a long time ago, but enough people will remember cheats in every era.

Every year on holiday abroad I always get talking to fans of other PL clubs and the main topic of conversation this year was City.

Yes it will dilute over time but they are cheats and will always be remembered that way.

I’m glad we can take the moral high ground and no one thinks we are cheats, in fact throughout all of this we are constantly being named as being hard done by.

Makes a change.

John, your question got me thinking. The success in the mid to late eighties was forty years ago.

That means it carries the weight of forty years of nostalgia, sentimentality, fondness, happiness, good memories and rose tinted glasses

With all of that in mind, would it make it harder for fans to say all of that success was tainted, all of my celebrating and memories are tainted? I'm embarrassed and no longer can take any enjoyment from the time?

Is it easier to let it go if the tainted success only happened five or ten years ago?

Again being honest Kieran,i would take the City haul of trophies and the days that go with them for the fans regardless of time frame.
I'm probably in the minority mate.

This hypothetical question is actually much closer to home than we might remember. And I don’t mean BMD home , but the failed King’s Dock stadium.

It could really have been us instead of Manchester City with these 100 plus charges and guilty verdict. If we had raised between £30m to £50m in the early 2000s, our home would have been at King’s Dock rather than Goodison. The Abu Dhabi group would have almost certainly been interested in investing in us instead of City, especially given our renowned Big Five club history.

Just imagine players like Aguero, KDB, the two Silvas, Kompany, Rodri, and Haaland all wearing the Royal Blue. Winning everything in sight. Being managed by Pep instead of the doldrum seasons and derby losses we have suffered year after year.

Logically I will say that I prefer where we are now. But deep down I am not so sure.

The question is flawed. If obtained by breaking the rules then it’s not success. The only real solution is for there to be a level playing field which does not favour the few. Wage caps, a limit on transfer fees and proper regulation of agents would be a good start. I have seen a lot of City fans who are disgusted with their owners and what has been revealed…

Ant, you're right about the King's Dock. It was the stadium that swung things in City's favour. A sliding doors moment for a number of reasons.

There is a big difference between your head and your heart. Logic and emotion are often at odds with each other.

As ever, we supporters can only enjoy the ride - if enjoyment there be.

Perhaps they should set a new rule that all prospective club owners have to have been born within 50 miles of the club they wish to own. That'd change the landscape somewhat!

Maybe on this thread John, but I’m not sure you would be in the minority, if you asked the match going fan.

Listen to Carragher talking about his own career, I’d have sooner cheated to win, rather than lost, and although he’s getting stick for his contradiction, he lived inside a professional changing room for years, and in an ultra-professional changing room, people only talk about winning.

No way, if you win by cheating your kidding yourself your 'the best'.

City will be looked upon as a cheating club for a long time, there's no pleasure or merit in getting success that way.
Their supporters had the pleasure of perceived success before they were accused of fraud I suppose, but it's hollow now.

Quite frankly, I am more irked by the antics of our ugly neighbours concerning the Heysel Shadium incident.
Apart from the Trajic loss of lives a five year ban was meted out to all English Clubs, for one Clubs mindless actions.

The punishment was grossly disproportionate and deprived us of our Dreams, not to mention the financial loss.

In Fact, we were never financially compensated in litigation against the perpetrator.
The question being, would I like my Club to cheat its way to success?…. Answer is a resounding no.

But, if I was asked would I agree, to cheating methods being implemented to prevent the afore mentioned neighbours from winning, then the answer would be a huge YES.

And I would like to take the opportunity, without hijacking the thread, to ask my fellow Blues, how they feel.

We were dealt with very swiftly by the PL, as we are only Everton.
In retrospect, I don’t think that City’s indiscretions had an adverse affect on our ability to be successful.
it will be the usual Suspects that will profit from city’s demise and our Neighbours will have one less adversary to contend with.

I wouldn’t be surprised, if after a protracted review, The PL will advise all Clubs, to employ the highest qualified ground Staff, using precision engineering and cutting edge (grass !) Technology, in order to create a Level Playing Field !

Paul, good timing with your question about who gets punished. Caught the end of the radio news report a little while ago. It was the sports section. Villa are playing their first home game, in the CL, tonight after being found guilty of breaching PSR rules.

Firstly, what will their punishment be, I don't know if it has been dispensed already, and how quickly will the punishment be administered? Quicker than with the sky darlings?

Secondly, will Villa fans feel unjustly done by with their punishment?

Thirdly, will they care? If a deliberate breach, and it helped them achieve CL football then so what. Good for us perhaps will be their outlook. Will they feel shamefaced, avoid the game tonight, complain out loud about the owners?

I agree with you completely Paul. I am more angry about the media’s portrayal of the goblins of Mordor as the aggrieved guardians of honesty, purity and justice than I am by city’s antics.

I have long found man city’s wealth and success a hilarious and inevitable outcome of letting the genie out of the bottle in 1992. Man City: the byword for footballing, managerial and financial ineptitude since Allison’s mad splurge in 1979, the endless source of mirth for us all for three decades, of all clubs , was the one intowhose lap the riches of the Middle East fell.

And now we find it was all a corrupt Indian rope trick. It’s just so perfect. So Man City. So premier league.

I'm in the minority on these pages Tony, but most definitely not amongst my Blue mates.

When it comes to supporting Everton I am a romantic, and I go to games as supporter, player and manager. Of course I have never been a professional footballer or a club manager but that doesn't stop me having opinions and discussing every detail of the game with fellow supporters and I have never come across anyone who applauds cheating. Quite simply what would be the point ?

City have taken cheating to another level but the rules governing football are clearly not fit for purpose and no doubt other Clubs are also guilty of manipulating the rules to their advantage. So in my opinion there is little point in playing in a league when Clubs can interpret the rules and the notion of fair play is not foremost in each and every game.

The Tony Kay, example is important and refers back to a period when the game was less concerned with finances, but when infringements occurred the penalty was swift and severe. Time for football and the Premier League to get their acts together as failure to do so simply means current games against Manchester City are a farce.

It's interesting that with the whole Man City circus, the Chelsea stuff has gone under the radar. With it being a lesser type of offence, in terms of number, it obviously hasn't gotten the same scrutiny or backlash.

In terms of Chelsea's success under Abramovich, I suppose they set the ground work for what City tried, and got away with for so long.

It shows there must be other big clubs really pushing the envelope.

Media talk of comparative punishment,multiply the amount of points clubs like Everton received.
What happens if they use Chelsea as the yardstick?
A £10 million fine?

What City won, they won (albeit dishonestly), and no one's going to take it off them. Full stop.

Therefore the City fans won't give a toss about their tarnished reputation. A few will feel some shame but the majority will soon forget the ignomy of their owners' decisions.

Richard Masters and his PL cronies will not want to punish one of their cherished favoured sons too harshly - they save that fate for the likes of us.

Like all big business, ultimately morals won't come into it, just greed and avarice.

I believe our Burnley fine will be reduced upon a successful appeal, but the trouble is, the flood gates are now open for a litigious feeding frenzy.

Did the PL not see this coming when they allowed Burnley to pursue their dubious claim?

Terrible management that ultimately might result in the demise of the business Masters was meant to help flourish.

Kieran #18

That is what I find difficult I have waited years for the lost at Arsenal by a penalty and everybody in the Highbury knowing that Everton where the better team and even Charley Nicholas apologising for the penalty he got,and Arsenal fans singing we would travel a millions miles fir one if your goals.Everton went on that season to win the League.I justify my research by wanting to put a bottom in the crap we find ourselves in, so we can move on.We will eventually get there, but is looks as the crap has reached pandemic proportions in the game and the IFC are pushing it further down the road such is the extent of it.They are saying the obvious, but there is neither the will or way to do anything. The Regulator says he will resign, resign away there nobody cares.The system is as it is and is institionalised.The best Everton can do is make the best if it. If we had have had Kenwright gone we would have stood a chance of being up there with the best of them.The truth is Kenwright was company to avoid, not only for Evertonians. As John #19 says we would have loved it.

Obviously we didn't cheat our way to success - but how do people feel about cheating (or rule-breaking) your way to survival / mediocrity?

I expect Burnley fans would find some of the more honourable posts on here quite interesting.

I've asked a few times on multiple threads whether anyone truly believes we're 100% clean - with very little response. My personal view is that an investigation into the Moshiri / Usmanov era would not end happily for us.

Robert.
Every Prem club has its skeletons.
Obviously not to the same extent.
I reckon Blue Bill would be in the frame.

To me, winning by cheating is unacceptable, forever, and all the more so when it involves the bent spending of £900mill.

To me, City at least deserve a £920mill fine (to be shared, £1mill each, by every club in all four divisions - and that would help enable any that wanted to pay legal fees to sue the City owners for more, and provide a helluva lot of help to the many near bankrupt small clubs), a 20 point deduction for the next six seasons and a transfer embargo for the next four season minimum too.

That might just give their bastard owners something to think about as winning trophies dwindles immediately before getting even harder.

John #23 and #19, I'm with Tony. I don't think you're in the minority at all.

From what I understand -- although I don't know any personally -- City fans are overwhelmingly still supportive of their club and celebrative of their recent triumphs, tainted or not. They have no intention of mentally unsinging their songs or undancing their dances of joy.

And are they so different from Evertonians? Their club goes back almost as far as ours. They are from similar working-class backgrounds to Merseysiders. And if anything they've suffered even more.

Christine's point about English honor is telling, but I believe that in this day and age it is more fanciful than real. City has no regrets, and honestly I don't think we would either.

Peter #21, thanks for the clarification. I now better understand the point you were making, although I can't agree. But you and Christine are both absolutely right about the need for better, fairer rules. I just doubt it will ever happen.

Robert, in the modern age especially, no club who's spent any time in the PL or even the Championship, is clean.

The Championship is cutthroat. There's decent money to be made in it. Get promoted again, and you're on the PL gravy train. Get relegated to League One, it's oblivion. There are several.monied yo yo clubs, with PL players and parachute payments, who make the Championship an unlevel playing field. It has to breed cheating and corruption if you want to survive in it, or get promoted out of it.

Once you've experienced the wealth of the PL as a club, it must do something to you. It has to leave a taint.

I think perhaps the only clean or honourable clubs, are the ones who permanently exist in Leagues one and two.

Someone asked a question earlier in the thread, what would fans do if we found out the Eighties success was tainted. Well, a question for the current era. If the new stadium was tainted, was built on dishonesty, would fans stop attending games on principle? If the ground was tainted by corruption. Would you in good faith be able to enjoy a game there? Would you xhole on a pie and a pint bought there?

Your football team is like your family. YOU can slag them off, but woe betide anyone from outside the family trying to do it. You will defend them to the hilt.

For me. Robert @6 puts up the best and most convincing post. I don't believe football does remember. I thought LFC were finished after Heysel, but what seemed like 20minutes later. The national press were fawning all over them as they paraded a trophy through the streets. It's seems to me that its only us blues who remember Heysel. Theyre still the media darlings.

I think there is an element of naivety in some of the posts here. Cheating has been around as long as sport. The English honor we speak about rings a little hollow when you think we invaded, murdered, stole from and colonized half the countries in the world - Before we taught them it was "simply not cricket" not help the umpire out by walking when you knew in your heart that you'd edged the ball.

Cheating is and always has been part and parcel of sport. whether it be bungs in the car parks, or a nice house for your mam.

Here's the thing with cheating; its in the eye of the beholder. When Brian Clough told the Leeds team to throw their medals away because they had cheeted their way to them. He was in a minority of one in that dressing room. The Leicester City fairy tale couldnt/wouldnt have happened if they had not cheated their way out of the championship the year before - Another one for Roberts list of forgotten sins.

A friends son (a stewart at Anfield) told me the City fans rejoiced at Kopite taunts as the queued up to enter the ground by simply joining in and gloating "Were cheating bastards, We know what we are". Remorse and shame ?... Give me a break. No one will ever take away their memories. The powers that be may say their owners cheated their way to glory off the pitch, but they had seen their heroes do it where it mattered. In front of their eyes.

Sport is, by definition, competition and where you have competition you will have people looking to get an edge. The fiercer the competition, the greater the desire for the edge. Very few teams have won trophies in the premier league era without cheating. The most successful manager even bullied the referess into playing until his team scored - Fergie time happened before our eyes. It was widely accepted, even applauded, but Was it any fairer than bunging employers two seperate salaries ?

You show me an EPL club and I would be confident of being able to point to a time when they cheated...So are we simply outraged because the richest club inevitably did it on a bigger scale ? The city ownership has to be punished and the punishment should fit the crime, but please. enough of the moral outrage.

I think Jesus nailed this one when he challenged him without sin to cast the first one

"Youv'e been mauled by the Cheetahs" was the song that the City fans sung on the final whistle.
They don't care who says what was gained by cheating.
They were there to see the cups and titles won, nobody can take that away from them.
I posted in the week every Prem club is bent to some extent.

Well said, Darren.

Darren, spot on with the full post. I think you are right about the naivety, although in part I think it's deliberate. A blind eye so to speak.

John, by extension, do any of us think Chelsea fans really care? We're a big club and winners is the attitude.

Liverpool fans are among the most arrogant and obnoxious supporters I've ever met. Does anybody think they care about their negative history. We're a big club and winners is the attitude.

Modern football embraces cheating. Referees who surrender to mobs of players to " review" decisions. Players taking corners with the ball.outside the quadrant ( like it makes any feckin differenc).. Alan Shearer and his chums telling us how a player was entitled to go down to "win " a foul.Wrestling matches in the six yard box at corners
Cheating encouraged on the pitch so how can we be astonished that it goes on off the pitch.

So lying and cheating is OK is it, what about the enjoyment they have taken away from other clubs fans. Then there's the prize money they have gained at others expense, I don't think we would be so forgiving if we were challenging them for the titles.
There's nothing commenderable about fraud, they are just as bad as these effing scammers that will take your all your money without a second thought. All their titles should be struck off, I don't think their fans will joking about the situation then.

Who likes a liar and a cheat, nobody, that's unless your also one.

Darren, cheating to fool a ref, a bung here or there, ain't stupid mate it's gone on forever and honestly your right, it is an occupational hazard when your on the wrong end of a dodgy decision, VAR or in our case, too many lawnmowers. So your right, you can't cry crocodile tears at every injustice otherwise you'd never finish a game!

But it pales into insignificance when you try to equate exactly the enormity of what City have done in comparison to any other league club, because nothing has ever come close.

Every fan of every club knows the rules are rigged, the bias is blatant and they will do what they can to limit the impact but this is wholesale fraud that eclipses anything any other club has done or gotten away with and that is the difference. It the blatant scale and breadth of it, not one or two workarounds like Chelsea, nah, just 8 years of cooking the books and 115 serious offences.

So yeah, we all know cheating goes on, but we almost went into administration several times when the direct consequences of City's cheating deprived us of revenue, possible European places, better players etc..

It's almost criminal, literally. So for me, can the moral outrage bit, this is taking the proverbial out of every other team who played them, their fans and the league itself. It's about scale. You cannot compare shoplifting to murder.. you can end up in prison for both but it's the scale and enormity of the crime which is different.

Martin Samuel got it about right in The Times:

"The degree to which City's alleged corruption is greater than the protectionist corruption of Financial Fair Play (FFP) is quite another matter.

Those loyal to the European Super League cabal won't agree, but City are accused of breaking rules that shouldn't exist in the present form. What began as an assault on unscrupulous owners and debt was twisted into a means of thwarting new money coming into the game, while protecting an elite.

If we are giving City's titles to their rivals, there isn't a lengthy list of benefactors: it's Man U, then Liverpool, then Man U & so on.

The red clubs, who love the English game so much they conspired to destroy it not so long ago, would again be close to untouchable: just as they like it, just as they've engineered"

It’s all about timing.

Enron hired a guy called Marshall Goldsmith to facilitate a session with their executive leadership team on their new company values. The same executives had a separate meeting that week to commit massive corporate fraud. They had seen unprecedented growth and were named "America's Most Innovative Company" by Fortune for six consecutive years, from 1996 to 2001.

After the Enron accounting scandals broke in 2001, the CEO and CFO went to prison and the company went bankrupt. If you are operating illegally, contrary to your values or norms then it will bite you eventually.

The owners and directors of Man City are not above the law because it’s football; the clubs that Robert @ 6 shared were cases that resulted in criminal trials, lifetime bans and fines. Man City fans might think it’s worth it right now, but when they are relegated, have their titles stripped and their club hierarchy are trapsing through the law courts they might think differently.

Christine, 115 charges, 114 convictions is huge, granted. But answer some of the questions posed in the responses.

Would you have it in you to walk away from the club after forty years if the Eighties success was tainted? Would you look to erase all the happy memories and turn them to dust?

Would you walk away if the shiney new stadium, that cost hundreds of millions, was built using the same style, not quantity, of breaches City employed?

Would you stop spending your hard earned money? Would you picket outside the ground? Would you stop coming on here? Would you stop watching televised matches and highlights? Would you dump all the merchandise and memorabilia you currently own?

My point is, the moral outrage works both ways.

How many football supporters do you think will begin to start walking away from the premier league, if Manchester City, are not dealt with properly, Kieran?

I can see both sides of the argument. City were cheating because the PSR/SCR rules definitely favour a few clubs, whilst leaving others at a massive disadvantage, but rules are still rules at the end of the day, no matter how many people don’t like them.

Anthony, good question. I think it will certainly escalate the speed of disenchantment amongst football fans in general. It's harder and harder to get motivated and excited enough to participate.

If your a Liverpool or City or an Arsenal, you've done more than enough to maintain and grow your fantasy. For many other clubs, and for floating fans, it's harder to stay interested.

I think Martin Samuel has it right.
There's a lot going on with this scandal. There's rules, and rules. There's the rules that the referees are supposed to enforce, and then there are the financial fair play rules which allow spurs to spend £400m a year without censure, where we get hit with 12 point fines and £40m lawsuits, for drifting ten million over a financial limit created specially for us.
City have shall we say been imaginative with their income revenue streams, but what's the real problem here, for us? It's these top six teams turning the league into a closed shop, where they can spend loads and. steal our players every year, and we've just got to nod and think that's somehow right. And our league is so corrupt now that the owners, (even owners of the little clubs like little old us) wave these rules through, cos they will benefit financially from them.; Gobhsites like the Friedkins aren't interested in Everton competing, they just want to ensure 7 figure profits every year.
the real cheats are the owners who have imposed this system on us. They've ruined our league in order to enrich themselves.
It's that bad.

Christine.

I think we are in agreement by saying the City owners deserve to be punished in line with the scale of their deception, but I simply cant have some of the moral indignation I'm reading everywhere.

Maybe I move in the wrong circles, but I (personally) don't know a single person who hasnt cheated somewhere down the line. It doesnt matter If you have omitted a few minor details on your tax return. Bought a case of genuine Corvousier for a 100 quid. or didnt put your flag up after volunteering to run the line for your kids team when you knew his team mate was a yard off. We're all guitly. I don't care what the paragons of virtue want to claim.

I get that scale has to come into it. The guy selling dodgy Levi's in the market has every right to expect the billionaire fraudster to be dealt with by the courts far more harshly than he is, but (for me at least) he has forfiet the right to be morally outraged. Cheating is cheating.

I have spoken to a couple of City fans I once worked with and despite their defiant bravado. They are hurting. The universal love and admiration they have enjoyed has been withdrawn almost overnight.
They've done nothing wrong, but they will the ones who have to face the hostility and the ridicule everywhere they go. They don't deserve that. because If any set of fans have paid their dues down the years. its them.

Why wouldnt they give their tormentors a defiant finger ? I know I would

Tony.

Would you walk away if it was Everton?

Kevin, @55, I've clashed with you on another thread, so am happy to agree with you on this one.

I know more successful clubs than us will have bigger turnover, cash reserves etc, but I do wonder yhet the spending they do.

City and Liverpool's monthly wage bill alone, with the 400k a week contracts, must be astonishing. Millions of pounds on a monthly basis going out of the clubs' bank accounts.

Then there is the annual lump sum going out the door on 100m plus transfer fees. They are definitely not receiving incoming transfer moneys for anywhere near the same amount.

If there isn't a shortfall, after taxes, day to day expenditure, etc then I do wonder how they're getting away with it. I know, I know, conspiracy theories and all that, but I am genuinely amazed.

Darren, good reply, Noone goes through this world like a Saint, I'm sure I break one or two of the ten commandments on a semi regular basis, I get it. Indignation hides shame. Indeed if it didn't we wouldn't need the bloody commandments in the first place!
I can't listen to Sky and it's pundits pontificating about the morals of all of this, their greed, influence and power has been a driving force behind the corruption in the first place. The Premier League did the deals with the devil, but remember all of the clubs voted acceptance of the rules when the joined the club. It's a gravy train with few morals,rules that are bent because they all get a piece of the pie. That's what success is to the othe 14 clubs, just being in the game. But it's still bent.

Human nature pushes the boundaries of truth in everything they do, for all the good that is achieved they are remembered for the bad things too, the orange one who allegedly turns down the speed of a program and directly causes death to pressure others to his will does it because he can get away with it.
So scale does matter, but your right, moral outrage is just the front used to divert others from looking too closely in the mirror.

Actually I found out that the Banana thing with City at the United game was a reference to the first game in the Championship or equivalent after relegation when a fan brought a huge inflated banana to the game and became a hero.It therefore was a act of defiance.

What should we bring to the game. Huge blown up potatoes and throw them on to the pitch or better still tie them to Sandhills station.

I’d be happier if it was Everton, because at least my fellow Evertonians, would have had years of unadulterated joy, but I’d definitely expect to be punished though John, because that’s what should happen when you break the rules.

If City, don’t get maximum punishment then my own personal opinion will be that the premier league, has no longer got any integrity, and it’s sadly the reason why I’m not sure Manchester City, will get punished properly, because I always believe football reflects life, and I honestly don’t see that much integrity in humanity, anymore.

Bent Politicians, everyone serving their own agendas, and if that means being bought, then do your best to not get caught. Otherwise it’ll just end up costing you more money.

You have just got me thinking about those blue cushions, that got banned because everyone started throwing them on the pitch at the end of the game in the seventies, when I first started going to Goodison Pk, Jerome!

Thanks Tony.
Neither would i.

There is a part of me that is completely fed up with the way football has gone John, and it doesn’t bother me anymore if I don’t even watch Everton playing mate.

If someone would have told me twenty years ago that I would eventually fall out of love with football, I’d have said to them, “nah - I can’t ever see that happening”

Hopefully the sale of Everton, to people who want to deliver success out on the pitch, might rejuvenate me, but honestly John, I just haven’t got the same feeling anymore, mate.

There’s absolutely no way I’d want us to knowingly cheat, no matter how successful we became.Yes, the City fans will always have their memories.But I don’t care what any City fan says…those memories are not going to be quite as good as they once were, because so much of what they achieved during this period has now been seriously tainted.And that’s now always going to be in the backs of their minds whenever they wax lyrical about Aguero’s goal, the Cup wins or the 100 point season.The shine has definitely been taken off these achievements, no matter what they say or how hard they try to kid themselves otherwise.
By the way, I’m not having a go at City fans.This has obviously had nothing to do with them, and deep down, they must be gutted.But I honestly think they’d be far better directing their anger at the people within their own club who were ultimately responsible for this scandal, rather than blaming the Premier League, the FA or independent investigations.
So as I say, absolutely no way would I want us to knowingly cheat to be successful.

There is a strong recurring theme across a lot of threads about what football has become, Tony.

But isn't the complaint really that we have spent the modern era (or almost all of it) being poor?

The rich clubs don't seem to have many complaints about modern football.

As things stand, we have the 5th lowest cost squad in the Premier League – ahead of only Leeds, Sunderland, Coventry and Hull. It seems extraordinary but we’re behind Ipswich by €27m and Brentford by €150m. The gap to Villa is about €230m. The gap to Newcastle is a staggering €450m. That is a serious gulf when you consider our squad only cost €333.35m.

The good news is, with our finances sorted and revenue levels rising nicely, we will become one of the richer clubs before too long - with a big squad of high quality players. Once that happens a lot of the complaints with modern football should ebb away.

If I were a glory-hunter, I wouldn't support Everton. None of us would. There are lots of City-supporting kids where I live (the Midlands) but they've only known success. Anyone can support a top team.

Some of the things Everton as a club have done off the field such as EitC and their backing of good-causes is a source of pride to me. However, we stopped being a competive football club years ago. Will we ever win anything again with regular billionaire owners? It seems daft to say that but the requirement used to be a Jack Walker type millionaire owner. Now you need to be funded by a state with questionable morals. Even Newcastle aren't allowed to join the Sky cartel clubs and have seen the ladder pulled up. All the money they have and they can't spend it without selling their best players.

I have mixed feelings about Manchester City but have they done worse than what Man United have done; spent billions, let the ground crumble and laid staff off with the odious Ratcliffe overseeing things? City's fanbase suffered a lot during the 80s and 90s whilst they watched their red neighbours win the lot. Their fans stuck with them watching some absolute dross. Yes, they have bent the rules and they deserve to be punished but looking at average 5-year spending, they've spent less than the RS and Arsenal. All the rumours at the time where that their owners were looking at us but the Commonwealth stadium swung it.

I've always had my doubts about Klopp's title-winning team. The stories of asthmatics and "Klopp potions" all made sense to me. They out-ran every team. They were fitter in injury time than most teams in minute one. An article during COVID times I read explained how they wouldn't retain their title. The next game I watched them in having read that article was at Villa Park where they conceded 7 goals. They were dead on their feet. It all made sense to me.

Our lovable neighbours were accused of FFP breaches in 2014. UEFA ruled that the charges should be dropped due to "allowable expenditures, such as stadium infrastructure, training ground investments, and writing off abandoned stadium plans for Stanley Park". Whereas we built a new £800m stadium and had to drop our main source of income because of Putin but were hit with a record points deduction and now owe Burnley £38m despite gaining no on-field advantage. Make it make sense!

All teams are equal but some teams are more equal than others.

Me neither being honest Tony,don't know if its an age thing,or if the club I love has finally wore me down.

I was the one who said if Everton, were competitive Robert, but if I’m being honest, I’m not completely sure if it would change my long term feelings, mate.

When we beat Liverpool, at Goodison, and had the joy of singing, “you lost the league at Goodison Pk” I got a proper lift, a proper tonic, but that was because those smug, self superior bastards, were getting a real taste of their own medicine, and I used to have bottles full of 50 litre medicine, waiting for them!

I enjoyed the last game at Goodison, but something was amiss to me personally, and the first time I saw the inside of the stadium at Bramley Moore, I was completely in awe, and so happy to see the realisation of what we had waited forever for.

I understand success changes everything but I can’t believe how many Liverpool supporters have expressed similar thoughts to me. “Fuckin he’ll, a bad year and you are saying you have had enough” is what I usually say to them, but the reply is always the same.

“It’s gone shit, it’s lost its uniqueness, day trippers, tourists, VAR, and the game just isn’t the same anymore, is the recurring message. I feel the sam, it’s hard passing a ticket on to anyone, you can’t celebrate a goal too soon, and it’s just become very sanitised imo. A perfect front face, but absolutely rotten to the core, when you look beyond this.

Tony, the game isn't the same as it was but, to be honest, there was a lot wrong with football in the past too. Stadium disasters, hooliganism, racism etc etc. In the few years after we last won the title, attendances were really down - sinking as low as 20,000 in 1992/93.

It is much more sanitised now but 52,000(+) fans are persuaded to turn up for home games.

Tony #61

Once you look beyond the football, it’s offshore for most clubs, or heading that way. Multi-club ownership has been negotiated by some, but they still can’t integrate football systems well enough to compete with the money clubs.It use to be Clubs where run and a owner coughed up to keep them going even buying players and paying their eages The real game now is capital extraction to make sure they get money out and opaque rule manipulation. Without Rui Pinto and Football Leaks, the Fordham scheme and City’s offshore operation might never have surfaced. UEFA partly knew but was constrained by time-barring, Now Ueafa are talking about revisiting the case, give me a break.while the Premier League investigated. City face serious allegations over financial reporting and sponsorship, including Fordham-related deals. But they will pay out for a compensation fund,keep their trophies, may get a transfer ban and not be relegated, because it is what suits the system that exists.The Regulator did a extensive report showing what is going on in the running of Clubs , but kicked the issues years down the road.He said he would resign if subject to pressure.Resign noone cares.It is different now, Tony.

Good post Robert. Things have never been perfect, maybe I just preferred football, in those days because it was seemingly a lot more honest.

More honest? Definitely debatable, remember Maradona, getting kicked to fuck in the 1982 World Cup. Similar with Pele before I was even born in 1958, and all those leg breaking tackles, that never even produced a yellow card, on those horrible muddy pitches that contributed nothing towards a game of skill?

Watching football on the television used to be a privilege, but now it’s become completely saturated and is definitely not helped by the circus that surrounds it.

Whatever the outcome of the Manchester City case, I believe that things have got to really change, Jerome.

I’ve thought about this article a lot over the last few days.

My first thoughts were that I wish I, we, had experienced what City fans have had over the past 18 years.

Then I thought how I hate seeing one of the kids cheat on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

Then I thought how heartbroken I would be to learn that everything I, we, saw in the mid-80s, the triumph of great players like Southall and Reid, and the not quite so great like Power and Clarke, was all based on falsehood.

I’ll go for the honest route.

Think Peter #72

Pretty much nails it.

Tony#70

I hope they change as well, but I'm sceptical they will, the clubs with the money write the rules, the appeals drag on for years, and the same owners stay in place.

That said, is change possible? Maybe. The Premier League actually enforced, 114 of 115 charges. New Squad Cost Ratio rules arrive in 2026/27, capping spend at 85% of revenue and closing the asset-sale loophole. UEFA is tightening too. But City are appealing, expulsion needs 14 clubs to vote for it,they appear reluctant and the Owners' Charter is toothless.,The APT settlement suggests they can work with the system when it suits them. So the rules may change. The structure, offshore money, capital extraction, money-club power, probably won't.

John #67

It's mainly an age thing

No doubt I'll also fall out of love with the game when I hit 40.

Anthony @71

Let’s not forget that odious Cheater Thierry Henry’s infamous Handball against Ireland, in the WC playoffs back in 2010.

There were three contentious incidents that ensued the Free Kick, which could have resulted in a free kick for Ireland… an offside, an attempt to handle the Ball and deliberate handball, which helped Henry Score.

the Irish FA protested vehemently and threatened legal action against FIFA.
To which FIFA responded, by offering 5M to help build the Aviva Stadium, disguised as an interest free loan.
Which, in the event of Ireland failing to qualify for the 2014 WC, would be waived.. Ireland did not qualify for that particular tournament.

The theory behind this at the time was, that France would generate more revenue to contribute to FIFA’s massively overflowing coffers.. obviously with the small Brass trickling down into the pockets of their corrupt Fat Cats.

Whereby, the reality was, that if by a slim chance ( according to some economists),Ireland had qualified, then a flailing economy, that was deeply in recession, would have been buoyed, to a small extent.

We only have to look back at the Last WC to see the Dark Arts that were performed by Paraguay v France and Spain v Argentina.

Wouldn’t it be great, in an ideal world where cheats were Dealt with, by the intervention of Karma, when overlooked by their governing bodies.

Just like when France went to the WC in South Africa, the Camp completely imploded.
There was discord among the Squad and complete capitulation on the Pitch.

We all know the Happy endings for Spain, in overcoming a bunch of obnoxious, nauseating Louts.

Brendan #75

Welcome.Thete is a measure of truth in it being a age thing.

What has struck me while reading all the responses, is that the more football has changed, the more fans have stayed the same. We will still turn up and tune in. We will still moan and give out. We will still be ecstatic and sulk about results. We will still be tribal. It could be said about any of the threads of responses to all columns and artcles.

I do think however that the more global football gets, the more it's promoted and analysed to within an inch of it's life, the more parochial we will become. We might still be pass remarkable, we might still sneer at others' misfortune, we might still chat on a superficial level with non Evertonians over a pint, but I think we will stop caring about the greater football world.

The interest will go. It may well be an age thing, in part it does apply to me. But football has turned into something ugly, something greedy.

Its a million miles away even now from the level of success David Moyes was able to achieve fifteen to twenty years ago. The money he would need now to achieve the same again, the inequalities he faces now, the beurocracy, the bullshit, makes it nigh on impossible to achieve even the modest levels of success without billionaire owners. Owners too that are willing to work within a culture of pushing the envelope, of bending and breaking rules, of conniving and oneupmanship.

As a result, it is becoming harder to keep your hopes, dreams and aspirations about your club alive, to keep them clean, and still dare to think that realistically that we can win, that we can achieve anything big without some element of cheating. We either embrace to some degree the universal code of cheating, it's what the game is now, or we will go into ourselves. We just become our and more about Everton, the weekly game and subsequent result, and see no further than next Saturday.

For me, it's a mix of both, for now. I'm casual, ambivalent for now, about a certain level of cheating, I see no need to be shocked, surprised or outraged if Everton are found to have cheated to some degree in recent years. I may not be happy about it, but it is the way of the footballing world at large now.

How long before I go full on either way,I don't know. But I getting there.

Kieran maybe it has always been like that and as we get older we know more and get more cynical.With the development of thinking helped by technology or the hybrid brain you are going to get more up to date awareness and people using it for their ends.But I think a poster on the Evertonia threads who was of the age that he was in a Merseyside Pubs at the same time as his Everton heros, one of which was Labone,said that it is better to Never meet your heros is the truest call.

At the time I looked it up and it's earliest reference is to the novel Madame Bovary(1800s)- 'Do not touch your Idols the Gilding will rub off.'

Paul@76, that’s why I always quote Dylan, and his the masters make the rules, lyrics mate. (See what Jerome, constantly writes)

Remember the television programme world in action? I remember watching it after the 1982 World Cup, when the great Brazilian chain-smoking footballer Socrates, was talking about how he thought the competition was rigged to make it easier for Brazil, simply because they had that many people in Spain, spending money, and boosting the economy.

One thing that has been proved beyond any doubt is that the World Cup, is definitely about money, (look at how they have extended it) and taking note of what Socrates said, then I don’t think many countries have had easier routes to get to a World Cup final, than England, but they simply haven’t been brave enough out on the pitch, to capitalise on this.

The City thing has opened a real can of worms (politically, imo) and although this is a football thread, my own personal views have become very, very, very fucking cynical, towards the success of the Everton supporting Prime Minister, Andy Burnham.

jerome @ 79 I made that comment, sometimes not wise to meet your heroes after witnessing the former everton captain who had only won the league 9 years before flogging tickets over the odds and on the public payphone to his bookies on the bar in the coach & horses pub in maghull...yes the times they are a changing ! I never expected tfg to spend spend, spend. 100m for a player no guarantee of success look at the r.s. chelsea beat us today at a canter today more money more quality. reality starts to hit now tougher games coming up